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 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 3:22 PM   
 By:   BornOfAJackal   (Member)

I think crowd funding would only be viable for niche, download-only releases, assuming a download service dedicated to movie soundtracks ever comes into being.

Mike Gerhard is right. You let the fan-atic into the funding chain and it could go all to hell. One reason I will shell out twenty bucks a CD (or $240 for fifteen) is because I know its got top-notch production value. We soundtrackers are a persnickity lot, in case you hadn't noticed.

The place I can see an indespensable role for crowdfunding would be if certain main title performances and episode cues were found for, say, BARNABY JONES, and it was just not practical to do a physical release. Lots of "niches" like this could be found by our favorite LA sonic archeologists, I do not doubt. Crowdfunding, then download-only releases might be the only viable way to accomplish their publication. I'd sure as heck pay $12.99 for quality BARNABY JONES download tracks.

Lukas, take a look at the high end audio site ACOUSTIC SOUNDS and look at how they are adding downloads to their selection of physical media. Even DSD Downloads. This might be the kind of "additional option" Screen Archives or La-La Land or Intrada might want to take a look at.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 3:27 PM   
 By:   (Member)   (Member)



So I said, why don't I ask the message board? They said we'd be interested in reading the reaction—so I'm asking.

What would you think?

Lukas



It's a good idea for Silver Age television series with various seasons and composers only because they are hard and long to produce.
I will sign you a check for the complete "Combat" (8 hours of Leonard Rosenman), "The Wild Wild West", "Ironside", "The Streets of San Francisco", "The Six Million Dollar Man", anytime, grasshopper.


PS: Where do we send our wish lists and funds?

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 4:20 PM   
 By:   Jon C   (Member)


I have some ideas as to HOW to adapt to that changing world which I'll share later... Do you guys have any?

Lukas


Okay, seriously though: what changing world? As pointed out, LLLR's is raking in the money. Intrada doesn't seem to have anything to complain about financially either.
If it was such a bad financial business to be in, there'd certainly not be two dozen limited edition labels, with new ones popping up even after financial woes of a couple and two shutting down shop. Kritzerland, the apparently dead Counterpoint, Intrada, Music Box Records, MovieScore Media, Kronos Records, Prometheus, La La Land Records, Howlin' Wolf Records, Screamworks Records, Perseverance Records, the list goes on.

And for all the hoopla over the overthrow of the CD and the coup by the digitial download, what have we got to show for it? A booming limited edition CD market. And the digitial downloads? Restricted by geographic location; sometimes limited, too; varying prices; nothing for a composer to sign; no resale value; questionable practices over re-use fees toward musicians; one label telling us the digitial downloads they tried were just not moving; issues with some providers only offering lossy downloads; and that this new digital age would bring cheaper prices, yet what has happened? Prices have gone up on items, and as another person pointed out, once the CD market is dead, it's their way or the highway and they can now charge what they want and that's tough cookies for you.
And if that's not enough, at least a couple years ago some ISP providers started capping monthly bandwidth; right now most are capping at high rates, but if you start streaming all your movies and started downloading all your scores (APE, FLAC, what have you), that adds up, and eventually the ISP providers are going to lower the cap.

The limited edition CD market isn't going anywhere. Hell, the LP never went anywhere, it just severely declined; in fact there's been an odd resurgence of limited edition LP's of new scores, lately. As long as we buy it, it'll stick around.

What is it we're supposed to be adapting to? Why do we have to come to the mountain when so far we're making the mountain come to us? Why must we be proactively defeatist? Let's procrastinate on defeat.


Thank you for pointing this out. The market overall may be changing, but the soundtrack niche market, not so much. I am happy to pay to own a copy of a soundtrack/score. I am not so happy to pay for the use license.

As for Kickstarter Lucas, I think it would be more viable for the re-recording side of things. If I were to invest (I use that term loosely) I would like to know details and study the project. That can lead to what others pointed out above. Also all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the bunch. As soon as one project does not come to fruition, people will be less inclined to donate again.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 5:30 PM   
 By:   TerraEpon   (Member)


As for Kickstarter Lucas, I think it would be more viable for the re-recording side of things. If I were to invest (I use that term loosely) I would like to know details and study the project. That can lead to what others pointed out above. Also all it takes is one bad apple to spoil the bunch. As soon as one project does not come to fruition, people will be less inclined to donate again.


I agree it'd make much more sense for re-recordings, because having a digital tier would have far less issues given the recording would belong to the producers. So make a $12 digital tier as the base, and a $25 CD tier which would cover US shipping (I've seen a couple KS where they say international pledges must add for the extra shipping). Higher tiers can be of course stuff like being invited to the recording sessions, the conductor singing the CD, etc.
Plus stretch goals would be easy, i.e more music (maybe a suite from another movie by the same composer. or whatever).

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 6:13 PM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

I wonder if LLL tried Kickstarter for the TOS Box set if they would have gotten enough donations up front to product the set? If it isn't broke, don't fix it.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 6:33 PM   
 By:   That Fun Guy   (Member)

I ran a successful Kickstarter project for my piano CD and I think it would work for a niche soundtrack for sure. Just explain everything clearly in the write-up and post great rewards and the backers will come. Also be clear in the risks section. If everything is planned correctly it will be a win-win for all parties. My project would be on a much smaller scale than a soundtrack but here's a link to my Kickstarter page for reference:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1253135687/surviving-the-storm-solo-piano-album

I mention John Williams and James Horner as influences in my music which is cool. So in short, Lucas, I believe Kickstarter will work.

-Paul

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 7:15 PM   
 By:   edwzoomom   (Member)

In my humble opinion, this project would be driven by the scope of the proposed release, by the integrity of the label working on the release and by the depth of the pockets of the investors willing and able to put forth the cash. I imagine this would work very well if all of the 3 are aligned perfectly.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 7:48 PM   
 By:   Warunsun   (Member)

The United States Postal Service is preparing to raise the cost of postage again. This increase is supposed to kick in around late January 2014. These increases have been occurring at a much faster rate and also in larger dollar amounts then I can remember my entire adult life.

I mention this in this thread because a typical long-term kickstarter project could face one or two postal increases while things are being concocted and produced.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 8:35 PM   
 By:   djintrepid   (Member)

I contributed to the first DJ mix album funded through Kickstarter this year, done by Dave Seaman, and the results were very positive and I was happy with the whole project. It would certainly depend on the project itself, but I am always willing to invest a little sumpin' sumpin' to get a litttle sumpin' sumpin' in return. There's no harm in trying something new. You never know until you try.

As a collector, I only buy what I would listen to way more than once or twice. I'm not about numbers of copies made or resale values. I'm about the value a score brings to my life.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 8:40 PM   
 By:   djintrepid   (Member)

I contributed to the first DJ mix album funded through Kickstarter this year, done by Dave Seaman, and the results were very positive and I was happy with the whole project. It would certainly depend on the project itself, but I am always willing to invest a little sumpin' sumpin' to get a litttle sumpin' sumpin' in return. There's no harm in trying something new. You never know until you try.

As a collector, I only buy what I would listen to way more than once or twice. I'm not about numbers of copies made or resale values. I'm about the value a score brings to my life.

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 8:51 PM   
 By:   Peter Atterberg   (Member)

Here's my two cents.

I think it would be good for exclusive projects, for things that just don't seem affordable by any means otherwise.

Let's say for example the Star Wars scores had never been released because the cost was just too much, but they're treasured grails by many. Then you would use Kickstarter to raise funds to finally get it out there.

But let's say you wanted to do Independence Day like LLL did, then no, Kickstarter wouldn't be necessary.

So I suppose my point is, Kickstarter could be good for those enormous box sets, but for the two CD sets or the one CD score's, I don't really think it's warranted given what everyone has said.

Independence has been out since 2010 and is now just selling out. Would we have not gotten Independence if Kickstarter was used and all the funds weren't reached?

 
 Posted:   Sep 27, 2013 - 11:18 PM   
 By:   W. David Lichty [Lorien]   (Member)

Thinking it through, for the right score this sounds fine. I agree that reliability of the label, or reputation of whoever becomes the Kickstarter group, would be key. Two big things:

Donors would have to know pretty close to exactly what they would get, no ex post facto deletions, though you can always add a bonus track or two. No one complains about bonuses, and it makes you look good, but the sure thing is that if you hit your goal, they're getting their music.

Donors would have to know when they'll get it. It can happen earlier, but not later than promised, which means that this kickstarter part really would have to come late in the arrangement, between the deal being designed and final 'signing'. I'd guess that 3 months might be a fair maximum to expect people to wait. It's close to the pre-order window for many blu-rays, so it's far from unheard of in a closely related market. As long as you can explain a longer time, make it reasonable, I'm sure it would be considered reasonable. If it takes 6 months to get these done from a certain stage, then it does, just make that clear.


I see three possible donor tiers, not many more. Assuming just CDs for simplicity, let me play this out:

$22 - Donor gets the CD, shipped. It's a pre-order, cut and dry. They get what they pay for at a fair price and a fair shipping charge.

$12 - Donor gets first dibs on ordering the finished CDs for the remaining $10, a window, say 30-45 days to buy it once it's ready, which most likely will. If they change their minds, it's a bit more profit for you on that many discs when you open sales to the general public. It's somewhere between straight support and a friendly, layaway gamble on the donor's part.

$50 - Donor gets 2 CDs shipped, one to sell after they're out of print if the donor wants to. You wind up supporting the secondary market, but you also get more money up front. The donor might make most or all of his money back, and people who don't participate can pay up after the fact if they want the thing once it's real. Ugly? Possibly some elements of it, but it's all fair.


So let's say, for a 1'000 CD run of a great sounding, complete CD of Goldsmith's The List of Adrian Messenger, you get

600 at the $22 level . . . $13'200
100 at the $50 level . . . $5'000
150 at the $12 level . . . $1'800 You get $20'000 up front, already $20 per disc for the whole lot.

800 of the CDs ship out immediately. 150 are set aside for the $10 folks. 50 immediately go on sale to the public for $25.

That's $1'250 more.

When those are gone, everyone else has to wait through the window for the 150 to be bought or not. Let's say 125 of the $12 donors do it.

$1'250 more.

Once that window has passed, the remaining 25 go on sale to the public. $40 this time?

$1'000 more.

Once they're gone, some of the 100 extra discs appear on ebay (some will buy for friends, you see) and they get what they get. Since there won't be stray copies at Screen Archives or Intrada, this will be the only way for people to pick them up - they'll fetch good money.

You get $23'500 total, an easy math $23.30 per disc, with all sold, none sitting around draining your bank account and the hope in your spirit. That sounds like it would have to be a good arrangement for you, and the tiers seem pretty reasonable to me. I could see myself doing any of them, depending on the project.

Mind you, if the donor numbers above doubled, you would need 1000 more CDs, so you would either have to cap Kickstarter, or have an openness on the quantities you can produce. You could also sell your own general public discs for a higher price. They're instant rarities, and people would have had a fair chance to pay less and have patience.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 2:00 AM   
 By:   Stephen Woolston   (Member)

My concern is a lot of fans will SAY it's a great idea, but when it comes time to send money, stay anonymously silent.

I think it's a good idea in principle and I'd DEFINITELY do it for projects I care about, like some of the rare John Barry I'd like to see out.

It would be selective though.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 3:33 AM   
 By:   (Member)   (Member)



So I said, why don't I ask the message board? They said we'd be interested in reading the reaction—so I'm asking.

What would you think?

Lukas



It's a good idea for Silver Age television series with various seasons and composers only because they are hard and long to produce.
I will sign you a check for the complete "Combat" (8 hours of Leonard Rosenman), "The Wild Wild West", "Ironside", "The Streets of San Francisco", "The Six Million Dollar Man", anytime, grasshopper.


PS: Where do we send our wish lists and funds?



How much for a complete boxset of "Combat!" (8 hours of military sounds by Leonard Rosenman)? How many grands? Hit me again, grasshopper!

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 6:36 AM   
 By:   Dyfrynt   (Member)

My concern is a lot of fans will SAY it's a great idea, but when it comes time to send money, stay anonymously silent.


It would be selective though.


This. Just this.

It has been my experience that people are willing to concede to a great many things in theory. When the reality shows up, one gets a fraction of that number to follow through.....

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 6:45 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

My concern is a lot of fans will SAY it's a great idea, but when it comes time to send money, stay anonymously silent.


It would be selective though.


This. Just this.

It has been my experience that people are willing to concede to a great many things in theory. When the reality shows up, one gets a fraction of that number to follow through.....


I concur.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 8:23 AM   
 By:   Hank V   (Member)

Lots of replies in a short period so the subject does create interest
So how much does the average project need to raise before it can get underway. How much in total are we looking at to produce a complete CD.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 8:34 AM   
 By:   Lokutus   (Member)

Well, obviously everything depends on specific project and case by case.

If the label announces that they are working on some obscure 50s score nobody heard about and they even can't be specific (there is also way to increase interest by linking some samples), it will hardly meet high goal necessary produce the CD.

If it is an interesting score that has never been released before or the previous release was completely fucked up because of being aimed at different market than ours or by re-use fees that crippled its previous presentation (for example decent score release of Apollo 13) and the label actually announces that they are working on such and such grail score but they need to cover expenses of the licence/re-use fees, which is quite prohibitive and even with 5000-10000 copies produced they would still loose a few thousand USD and there is no chance for them to finish the project without going bankrupt, then Kickstarter is a perfect way to make this happen and with such an important score from a popular movie that can actually sell well outside our little community too, it could probably meet its goal. But with AFM lowering their re-use fees for limited editions, is this really still the case of some major scores (unless they were recorded by non-AFM orchestra and massive reuse fees are still an important factor in their production)?


but everything now is a just a theory and we just won't see what will happen until there is few KS projects to back up since nobody can't just expect everyone to back every project up and although I have no problem to pre-order something and wait for it, I am not sure I would be that eager to backup something I have never heard about until there is more info provided.

Also KS can probably help in case of either big and very expensive releases to produce (eg re-recordings or TV series box sets) or some more obscure scores that can barely sell a few hundred copies only and are not extremely expensive to produce to begin with. With the middle groung scores there is hardly necessity for any KS support if those are well capable to pay for themselves.

 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 8:48 AM   
 By:   Lokutus   (Member)

So how much does the average project need to raise before it can get underway. How much in total are we looking at to produce a complete CD.


Well, I can't speak about US-recorded scores, which will be probably far more expensive to produce but over the past few months I have been working on several score releases and while we are still waiting for the new tapes to arrive (fingers crossed we'll be able to get those and won't have to use LP as our source, which would still sound fine enough) so we can start mastering, it's not all that expensive.

In case of these scores we have to cover:
1) licence from the film producer
2) licence from the composer or his representatives and pay for his share from the sales in advance - it depends on amount of copies produced only
3) pay the musicans union, which includes the orchestra, choir, soloists and the conductors
4) transfering the tapes and preparation of final master
5) graphic design and liner notes
6) CD manufacturing and distribution

if there are for example 2 or 3 scores on the same CD it will cost us twice or three times more that has to be paid paid to the musicians and can become very expensive if the score was recorded using larger group of people - even though it doesn't affect at all nr. 2. Since I am dealing with nr. 1-3 only, it will cost roughly 500-600 EUR in average for a single CD release in case of limited edition of 300 copies, which doesn't include additional expenses for nr 4-6 and I am still not sure if we won't have to deal with actors or their families if we will be using some photos from these movies.



But the biggest problem is that everything is very limited in time, we just have to not only produce everything, get it to the market but also sell our limited run of 300-500 copies until the end of 2014. Since our limited edition of 300 copies shouldn't hopefully cost much more than 1000 EUR to produce from start to finish, it is actually do-able as a single and only release, but there is unfortunately no time for us to wait for the 1st release to return the investment so we could do 1-2 more.

if we get access to the tapes from the composer's widow (which is nearly impossible to deal with and others have failed there before over the past 20 years), there is like 5 more releases we would love to do RIGHT NOW but it is becoming way too expensive. I have been also thinking about using kickstarter to help us raise some funds to produce these releases in such a short period of time, but everything depends whether or not we can get the tapes.

 
 
 Posted:   Sep 28, 2013 - 9:43 AM   
 By:   nerfTractor   (Member)

I'd be thrilled to participate and contribute to any effort that puts more of this treasured music into the hands of people like me who love it. I worry sometimes that our labels may drop difficult projects as being too expensive or just too much hassle, without ever knowing whether those projects would sell well or not at all. The ability to support a project up front would hopefully help us customers let the labels know beforehand what kind of interest there is.

As for the digital download question, my own vote would be heck yes, I'd happily take that option, especially if available in a very high quality or lossless version along with the same artwork and liner notes we get with the physical discs. I rip all my CDs to lossless format and listen to everything via iTunes myself. If a digital option would reduce costs then so much the better. It's my preferred format. And there's no waiting around for the postman!

 
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