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 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 7:18 AM   
 By:   MikeP   (Member)

There's really not much to add.

Zimmer is one of my favourite composers, but I would say the same thing even if he weren't:

Feel free to dislike his music all you want, but try to formulate your criticism as constructively as possible. It isn't very fruitful if you step all over those who happen to like him. That will just lead to personal insults on both ends. I think a good discussion can be had if people approach it maturely.

What annoys me with much of socalled the Zimmer "criticism" on this board and others is the childish oneliners and cheap shots (and the over-dramatic rhetorics) -- which seems to be avoiding the issue more than anything, and alienating everyone else in the process.



Yep. That's it. I don't care who likes what... but the vast majority of the ridiculous Zimmer bashing is of the "Zimmer sucks" variety. It is rarely any kind of rational thought, just more on the level of grade school name calling. And those who lead it are more than happy to also trash those who enjoy anything other than what they approve.

Yeah...there are a few who excel in just slinging shit big grin and they add absolutely nothing to any conversation

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 7:25 AM   
 By:   nerfTractor   (Member)

For better or worse, Zimmer does divide the room pretty distinctly. I mean, can you imagine so much ink being spilled by detractors of Elmer Bernstein? Or Howard Shore? The case of Zimmer seems to have gone beyond whether someone admires his musical contributions and into a critique of the state of modern film music and even cinema in general. And as with so much other modern discourse on art or politics or anything else, we seem increasingly unable just to share an opinion and the reasons for it, but the debate immediately turns personal and polarized. I'm content to enjoy Zimmer's music when it's right for the time and place (e.g. INCEPTION) and to simply look elsewhere when what I want is an old school, subtle and delicate orchestral score. Life is far too short to burn up so much energy railing against a musician who doesn't suit your tastes.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:43 AM   
 By:   chromaparadise   (Member)

My problem with Zimmer stems from 2 different problems:

1. How much of the music in his scores are REALLY COMPOSED by Hans Zimmer. Look, it's one thing to have another composer come in a pinch (i.e. ST-TMP with Fred Steiner) but these scores are PLANNED to be written by committee.

2. All of these scores are for the "Comic Book Hyper-Trash" genre that pollutes our cinemas. Seriously, we're REALLY debating creative impetus of the directors of these "movies"? Maybe Zimmer's scores are so repetitive because he's having a hard time differentiating between which movie he's scoring...Maybe he's really not to blame after all!

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:47 AM   
 By:   Ron Pulliam   (Member)

I don't like Zimmer because his music is uninspired and pedantic. It's "cookie cutter" scoring...insert rhythm A here and insert rhythm B there. It's lazy and lacks subtlety, intelligence or wit. On the other hand, he is completely successful at reflecting the total lack of understanding of music on behalf of the directors/producers who hire him to give them what they want (which is, essentially, nothing).

I don't want any composer to sound like any other. Happily, I can spot a Zimmer score in a few notes and change channels.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:49 AM   
 By:   Cvalda   (Member)

He and his disciples now dominate the field, and have all but destroyed films scoring in Hollywood as an art form. He's not a composer, he's a brand name, and what work he actually does is always proudly, aggressively mediocre at best.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:50 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

One of the biggest problems is that the Zimmer non-haters (Zimmer lovers Ick!) may be hoping the Zimmer haters stop hating him and stop expressing it.

It is just not going to happen. Give up.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:52 AM   
 By:   Thomas   (Member)

2. All of these scores are for the "Comic Book Hyper-Trash" genre that pollutes our cinemas. Seriously, we're REALLY debating creative impetus of the directors of these "movies"? Maybe Zimmer's scores are so repetitive because he's having a hard time differentiating between which movie he's scoring...Maybe he's really not to blame after all!

I think he's alluded to that problem himself in a concaving manner...

http://www.classicfm.com/composers/zimmer/news/hans-zimmer-batman-vs-superman-score/

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 8:58 AM   
 By:   nerfTractor   (Member)

In an interview with Ridley Scott, he was asked, what's your best advice for someone composing a musical score to one of your films? Ridley's answer was, "Don't write me a symphony." And there, I think, you have the contemporary state of the union in a nutshell. Write me nothing that competes for attention in any way, with my glorious photography and sound effects.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:03 AM   
 By:   OnlyGoodMusic   (Member)

That's exactly the shallow answer that I expected from Ridley Scott. The surface gloss of his movies isn't accidental, there's nothing inside his films or himself. No surprise he doesn't understand the role of music as an adjunct to drama. He must have been very pleased with the insipid wallpaper provided by Marc Streitenfeld for Robin Hood then, too.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:17 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

In an interview with Ridley Scott, he was asked, what's your best advice for someone composing a musical score to one of your films? Ridley's answer was, "Don't write me a symphony." And there, I think, you have the contemporary state of the union in a nutshell. Write me nothing that competes for attention in any way, with my glorious photography and sound effects.

That's exactly the shallow answer that I expected from Ridley Scott. The surface gloss of his movies isn't accidental, there's nothing inside his films or himself. No surprise he doesn't understand the role of music as an adjunct to drama. He must have been very pleased with the insipid wallpaper provided by Marc Streitenfeld for Robin Hood then, too.


How does that explain away Gladiator? That certainly wasn't sonic wallpaper. confused

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:28 AM   
 By:   OnlyGoodMusic   (Member)

Don't tell me you think that Gladiator was an incisive, musically differentiated score. wink

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:31 AM   
 By:   Kim Tong   (Member)

In an interview with Ridley Scott, he was asked, what's your best advice for someone composing a musical score to one of your films? Ridley's answer was, "Don't write me a symphony." And there, I think, you have the contemporary state of the union in a nutshell. Write me nothing that competes for attention in any way, with my glorious photography and sound effects.

That's exactly the shallow answer that I expected from Ridley Scott. The surface gloss of his movies isn't accidental, there's nothing inside his films or himself. No surprise he doesn't understand the role of music as an adjunct to drama. He must have been very pleased with the insipid wallpaper provided by Marc Streitenfeld for Robin Hood then, too.


How does that explain away Gladiator? That certainly wasn't sonic wallpaper. confused


He got lucky that the film fell within the "1 out of every 10 scores by Zimmer is not that bad!"

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:35 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

One of the biggest problems is that the Zimmer non-haters (Zimmer lovers Ick!) may be hoping the Zimmer haters stop hating him and stop expressing it.

It is just not going to happen. Give up.


Nor is that my goal. If you really feel that you "hate" his music, that's fine (although 'hate' is such a strong word, it should be used sparingly, IMO). However, there should be ways to express said feeling in a way that makes conversation or debate possible. Angry, über-dramatic rhetorics and cheap oneliners don't really create that environment. And it's made even worse by the fact that it's an online forum where body language is not available.

So dislike all you want, but asking for a calm, rational debate is not altogether unreasonable, one would hope.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:40 AM   
 By:   Other Tallguy   (Member)

I do wonder how people reconcile 1) he’s such a no-talent hack that he doesn’t write his own music but then 2) his scores are no good. Why would he hire ghost writers that are no good?

Ender’s Game (not Zimmer, I know) has been a revelation for me. I hate it. Maybe I’ll think differently when I see the movie. But I really can’t stand it. It is everything that people complain about RCP on a single score. (I’m actually unfamiliar with Transformers and Battleship. But what could Horner have done that was so bad that the creators said “No, get us THAT guy!”)

This tells me that the Zimmeratti are not all the same. I love Ramin Djawadi. Pacific Rim might be my favorite score this year. (Why didn’t they let HIM do Ender’s Game?) How to Train Your Dragon (Powell) is one of my favorite scores ever. I’ll take some Gregson-Williams any day.

I wanted more from Man of Steel. It’s not BAD. It’s just not GREAT. No I didn’t want a Williams re-tread, but I think it was as amorphous as it was because face it, that’s what it was up against. I wanted something that was at least as melodious as Pirates 3. I listen to about ten minutes of MoS on a regular basis. (Not always the same ten.)

I have many Zimmer scores that are my all time faves. (I still love Point of No Return and Crimson Tide.)

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:45 AM   
 By:   solium   (Member)

Don't tell me you think that Gladiator was an incisive, musically differentiated score. wink

It is a score that most certainly works with the film and indeed compliments the individual scenes. (for the most part. Some of the action cues are generic.) It helped Zimmer borrowed some ideas from the classical library. wink

I do think over all it's irrational to say Zimmer sucks like he never created a single interesting cue. While I don't care for his minimalist output, scores like Prince Of Egypt, A League Of Their Own, and Backdraft are excellent. Any honest broker should be able to see the many levels of his work.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 9:51 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

One of the biggest problems is that the Zimmer non-haters (Zimmer lovers Ick!) may be hoping the Zimmer haters stop hating him and stop expressing it.

It is just not going to happen. Give up.


Nor is that my goal. If you really feel that you "hate" his music, that's fine (although 'hate' is such a strong word, it should be used sparingly, IMO). However, there should be ways to express said feeling in a way that makes conversation or debate possible. Angry, über-dramatic rhetorics and cheap oneliners don't really create that environment. And it's made even worse by the fact that it's an online forum where body language is not available.

So dislike all you want, but asking for a calm, rational debate is not altogether unreasonable, one would hope.


I am with you on that Thor, and I dislike the word 'hate' I merely referenced it because it was the theme in the thread subject. I certainly do not hate him personally. In text and video interviews that I have seen he is personally likable and sometimes self effacing. I have never seen anything in Hans Zimmer that make me think he is a jerk or anything like that.

I have never used insulting personally attacking words against Zimmer.

But like the others here I dislike his music, especially in the more recently say 10 or 12 years. I dislike it because of the degree to which he has become so extremely popular with directors. This success, and the composer colony he established in RC, has had the unfortunate impact of this Zimmer sound being inescapable even when he is not the composer, and too many 'large action pictures' seem like to either have to go to Hans Zimmer, or copy the 'Hans Zimmer sound' with one of his ambassadors like Steve Jablonsky etc etc. (For example most recently Enders Game dumping Horner).

How I feel about the ubiquity of the Zimmer sound is similar to how I feel when I see an overproduced car everywhere I go, my eyes weary of seeing the same boring popular make in multiple copies everywhere I drive. Yawn.

Further, it is sad because his success at the propagation of this sonic model has effectively retrained the ears of a lot of important people in the industry so that they are no longer interested in a traditional orchestral melodic approach, and it is not even considered as a possibility.

I think it is also a complete intellectual failure for Zimmer defenders here to attach non-Zimmer people as not being 'open minded'. Nothing is more irritating than saying I do not like what you like because my mind is smaller than yours. There is nothing more intellectual or educated about liking Zimmer.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 11:07 AM   
 By:   Thor   (Member)

That was actually a decent post, ado. Criticism like that is what we're looking for!

Of course, I disagree very strongly with your assessment, but at this point in time I feel it's more important to assess the discourse itself (the manner in which the topic is debated) than the topic itself.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 11:17 AM   
 By:   Ado   (Member)

That was actually a decent post, ado. Criticism like that is what we're looking for!

Of course, I disagree very strongly with your assessment, but at this point in time I feel it's more important to assess the discourse itself (the manner in which the topic is debated) than the topic itself.


Thanks Thor

You are always a decent guy, well spoken (written) and I have gotten some good music from you for a nice price before. If you are a defender of Mr. Hans then you are credit to the cause, and I agree that the discourse should be at this level.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 5:04 PM   
 By:   pp312   (Member)

Makes you wonder what came first: Zimmer's pointless music or bad movies.

I'd say one attracted the other, just as a certain putrid substance attracts flies and dogs.

Personally I'll only start hating Zimmer when they ask him to re-track Ben-Hur, Spartacus & El Cid. Even then I'll only really hate those who asked.

 
 Posted:   Oct 14, 2013 - 6:15 PM   
 By:   BackToTheFutureFan   (Member)

Ender’s Game (not Zimmer, I know) has been a revelation for me. I hate it. Maybe I’ll think differently when I see the movie. But I really can’t stand it. It is everything that people complain about RCP on a single score. (I’m actually unfamiliar with Transformers and Battleship. But what could Horner have done that was so bad that the creators said “No, get us THAT guy!”)

This tells me that the Zimmeratti are not all the same. I love Ramin Djawadi. Pacific Rim might be my favorite score this year. (Why didn’t they let HIM do Ender’s Game?) How to Train Your Dragon (Powell) is one of my favorite scores ever. I’ll take some Gregson-Williams any day.

I wanted more from Man of Steel. It’s not BAD. It’s just not GREAT. No I didn’t want a Williams re-tread, but I think it was as amorphous as it was because face it, that’s what it was up against. I wanted something that was at least as melodious as Pirates 3. I listen to about ten minutes of MoS on a regular basis. (Not always the same ten.)

I have many Zimmer scores that are my all time faves. (I still love Point of No Return and Crimson Tide.)


This is a very good post.

It makes me believe the filmmakers are behind the surge of this generic RCP sound. It worked in one or two blockbusters (TDK, Transformers), and they have been trying to replicate it ever since. Zimmer can do good work. We all know Horner can do good work. We all know Tyler can do good work. Bottom line is that the studios want a sound that is cheap, fast, and that sells.



 
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