Also, I think it's pretty clear that Elfman's TERMINATOR theme is modeled very heavily on Fidel's theme. It's sort of an heroic variation of it more than anything, really. (and it has some odd similarities to the love theme from SPARTICUS too!).
Junkie XL is taking it in stride. Here's what he has to say:
"As my mentor Hans Zimmerman told me: you haven't made it in Hollywood as a composer until you get replaced on a project. So I guess I finally graduated this week.
It pains me to leave this project, but a big thanks to Zack for asking me to be part of his vision, and I wish Danny, Joss and Warner Bros. all the best with Justice League.
Junkie XL is taking it in stride. Here's what he has to say:
"As my mentor Hans Zimmerman told me: you haven't made it in Hollywood as a composer until you get replaced on a project. So I guess I finally graduated this week.
It pains me to leave this project, but a big thanks to Zack for asking me to be part of his vision, and I wish Danny, Joss and Warner Bros. all the best with Justice League.
- Tom"
When did Hans Zimmer become Hans Zimmerman?
Haha! Good catch. I fixed it. Friggin autocorrect!
Some thoughts, which are pure speculation. There are two possible scenarios as to why Junkie XL left. First Snyder’s departure at such a late stage may have given Whedon more creative control over the process as part of the deal of signing on. The film is locked in for a November release and any push back may have implications for WB studio’s bottom line. With this freedom and know how Whedon was able to make some changes to the film, the score been one of them. For Whedon Junkie XL could not deliver a score on par with Alan Silvestri or Danny Elfman.
Or for that matter David Newman, Greg Edmonson, Christophe Beck, Robert Kral, Robert Duncan...all superior composers who Whedon has also collaborated with as director. I don't think Junkie XL is really the thematic sound that Whedon tends to favor.
What to expect from Whedon? Correct me if I am wrong, but I read that Whedon had asked Silvestri to tone the heroics in the first Avengers film? Also there was no reference in the score to The Incredible Hulk (Armstrong), Thor (Doyle) or Captain America: The First Avenger (Silvestri) which preceded the first Avengers.
Incorrect -- Silvestri makes more than one reference to his own theme for Captain America. It is correct that apparently Whedon did not instruct Silvestri to use thematic material from other composers.
The second Avengers had only a brief smattering of music from Captain America: The First Avenger, Thor: The Dark World (Tyler) and Iron Man 3 (Tyler) from what I recall. So in terms of thematic continuality, the Avengers films helmed by Whedon are quite disappointing.
Tyler referenced his own themes for Thor and Iron Man, both he and Elfman did variations on Silvestri's Avengers theme, and I think Elfman may have adapted some other Tyler material since he came one to write additional music for a score already largely composed. So I'm not sure why you'd fault Whedon for a lack of thematic continuity here. He's been the only one really pushing thematic continuity where it wouldn't necessarily happen, it seems like. (I'm setting aside continued collaborations between composer and director, such as Tyler Bates with James Gunn on the Guardians of the Galaxy films, where it would be expected. Though interestingly Henry Jackman, collaborating on the third Captain America film with the Russo brothers, abandoned some of the best thematic stuff he came up with for his previous CA film, mainly retaining just the noisy Winter Soldier motif. Why, I wonder?)
I'm gonna put myself on mastersofuniverse and thor's side of this argument. Elfman is one of my fav composers, but I personally hate that the MCU films have no musical continuity (aside from the items Yavar mentioned above, but by then it was too little too late IMHO) and now it seems the DCCU is going the same route. And for those that bash BvS for being short on themes, my analysis of that film score points out a bunch (like, 20):
I'm gonna put myself on mastersofuniverse and thor's side of this argument. Elfman is one of my fav composers, but I personally hate that the MCU films have no musical continuity and now it seems the DCCU is going the same route.
Except that Elfman's recent collaboration with Whedon on Avengers 2 was actually all about using other people's thematic material (which he did in creative ways -- most people think he actually improved upon Silvestri's Avengers theme with his treatment of it). It doesn't seem wholly unlikely that he could do similarly for Justice League, perhaps weaving in new thematic material of his own (similarly to Rupert Gregson-Williams on Wonder Woman -- the Zimmer theme was only in the score three or four times).
Sorry Yavar, I just read your post after I initially posted (it's all in italics so I had trouble figuring out what was what at first), but before your latest post I edited my original post...but yeah, your point is taken. Noenetheless, I would have loved to hear the style established in Man of Steel developed thru to JL. I guess we'll see. I just hope it's better than "Looking Glass"....
Incredible Hulk -- not really applicable, since they essentially rebooted the character, with the only thing linking the Ed Norton film to the MCU being William Hurt's supporting character (plus the tiny Tony Stark cameo at the end).
Iron Man -- none between the three Iron Man films, *but* Tyler did use his Iron Man 3 theme in Avengers: Age of Ultron
Thor -- (likely) none between the three Thor films (we'll see if Mark Mothersbaugh references Tyler or Doyle but I doubt it, and with Thor 3 they seem to be rebooting the tone of that series so it really wouldn't even be appropriate)...but again, Tyler referenced his Thor: The Dark World material in Avengers: Age of Ultron.
Captain America -- the most individual thematic continuity, with Silvestri's theme for The First Avenger being referenced early in The Winter Soldier, and Civil War continuing the Winter Soldier material (which I didn't care for), but disappointingly not this for whatever reason (my favorite part of the Winter Soldier score):
Ant-Man -- Did Henry Jackman use Beck's theme at all in Captain America: Civil War? In any case I feel certain that Beck will be back for Ant-Man and the Wasp, and we'll have thematic continuity in that series just like...
Guardians of the Galaxy -- It seems certain that James Gunn will continue his collaboration with Tyler Bates, and the Guardians thematic material will continue consistently throughout this series' forseeable future as well. And after three films, I suspect it will be so established that even if Gunn leaves the series, it may continue on. I'll bet you it's referenced in Avengers: Infinity War.
Avengers -- Silvestri used his Captain America theme multiple times in the first film, and as I noted above Tyler and Elfman each used multiple previous themes in the second film. I strongly suspect the third and fourth films will continue to reference previous themes and not start entirely from scratch.
So there's actually a decent amount of thematic continuity in the series...it's just not very consistent!
Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman currently have signature sound motifs more than "themes" which is pretty typical these days..
Yes this. We have lots of motifs going around in the superhero films but very few themes besides the Captain America March which was hardly used at all in the film itself outside the end credits. To me neither Avengers nor Avengers 2 had a proper theme that got used very much, but then I couldn't listen to the scores enough times to digest the themes if they exist.
Surprised to see so much joy over Elfman coming aboard. Junkie XL wasn't fired so much as not called back to provide music for the new scenes. It appears Elfman is scoring for those, not rescoring the film from the ground up. I would not want that. I prefer the Zimmer-JunkieXL-Price-Gregson-Williams sound for the DCEU. These movies, along with Nolan's Batman films, have the best scores out of the entire CBM genre. (I also like what Jackman did for The Winter Soldier.)
Surprised to see so much joy over Elfman coming aboard. Junkie XL wasn't fired so much as not called back to provide music for the new scenes. It appears Elfman is scoring for those, not rescoring the film from the ground up. I would not want that. I prefer the Zimmer-JunkieXL-Price-Gregson-Williams sound for the DCEU. These movies, along with Nolan's Batman films, have the best scores out of the entire CBM genre. (I also like what Jackman did for The Winter Soldier.)
Yes, JXL was fired/replaced and yes, Elfman is scoring the entire film not just the reshoots. And of course most people are excited, cause unlike JXL Elfman is actually a talented film composer.
Surprised to see so much joy over Elfman coming aboard. Junkie XL wasn't fired so much as not called back to provide music for the new scenes. It appears Elfman is scoring for those, not rescoring the film from the ground up. I would not want that. I prefer the Zimmer-JunkieXL-Price-Gregson-Williams sound for the DCEU. These movies, along with Nolan's Batman films, have the best scores out of the entire CBM genre. (I also like what Jackman did for The Winter Soldier.)
Yes, JXL was fired/replaced and yes, Elfman is scoring the entire film not just the reshoots. And of course most people are excited, cause unlike JXL Elfman is actually a talented film composer.
Well, fantastic. So we're going to hear a mishmash of Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Big Eyes, Oz, Dark Shadows, Alice in Wonderland, and Frankenweenie.
Surprised to see so much joy over Elfman coming aboard. Junkie XL wasn't fired so much as not called back to provide music for the new scenes. It appears Elfman is scoring for those, not rescoring the film from the ground up. I would not want that. I prefer the Zimmer-JunkieXL-Price-Gregson-Williams sound for the DCEU. These movies, along with Nolan's Batman films, have the best scores out of the entire CBM genre. (I also like what Jackman did for The Winter Soldier.)
Yes, JXL was fired/replaced and yes, Elfman is scoring the entire film not just the reshoots. And of course most people are excited, cause unlike JXL Elfman is actually a talented film composer.
Well, fantastic. So we're going to hear a mishmash of Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Big Eyes, Oz, Dark Shadows, Alice in Wonderland, and Frankenweenie.
No wonder you guys have wood.
Yep, those are the specific six scores that we're guaranteed to hear every time Danny Elfman writes new music. But hey don't blame him, that's what the producers want! I'm sure that when he goes into meetings, he's like, "Look guys, can't we do something different this time? What if I did a mishmash of, say Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Big Eyes, Oz, Dark Shadows, Alice in Wonderland, and Beyonce's LEMONADE? Wouldn't that be something, huh?"
But you know those tight-fisted, money-grubbing producers, they just won't have it any other way. "No!" they demand, "it must be a mishmash of Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Big Eyes, Oz, Dark Shadows, Alice in Wonderland, and Frankenweenie! Exactly those six scores - no more, no less!"
And Danny Elfman's probably like, "Sigh, ok fine, but just so we're clear, when you say Oz, do you mean my score to Return to Oz, or the HBO prison drama, Oz?" And now the producers are getting impatient, and they shout, "Danny Elfman, if we wanted your score to Return to Oz in the mishmash, we would have said we wanted your score to Return to Oz in the mishmash! Obviously we're talking about the score to the HBO drama prison drama Oz. Look, we know what sells alright, we know what modern audiences expect, and modern audiences expect a mishmash of-" "-Batman, Sleepy Hollow, Corpse Bride, Big Eyes, Oz (the HBO prison drama), Dark Shadows, Alice in Wonderland, and Frankenweenie, got it!" Elfman sighs. "Well, it's not what I'd prefer, but I guess Big Elf-Style's gotta pay the bills."
But hey, if you don't like it, make your own film - then YOU can decide which weirdly specific six scores go into the mishmash!
I'm gonna put myself on mastersofuniverse and thor's side of this argument. Elfman is one of my fav composers, but I personally hate that the MCU films have no musical continuity and now it seems the DCCU is going the same route.
Except that Elfman's recent collaboration with Whedon on Avengers 2 was actually all about using other people's thematic material (which he did in creative ways -- most people think he actually improved upon Silvestri's Avengers theme with his treatment of it). It doesn't seem wholly unlikely that he could do similarly for Justice League, perhaps weaving in new thematic material of his own (similarly to Rupert Gregson-Williams on Wonder Woman -- the Zimmer theme was only in the score three or four times).
Yavar
Yes! Although the actual superheroes only have motifs (which I think started with Dark Knight and understandibly took off from thete) the Smallville/father son theme in Man of Steel IS a full blown theme and I would LOVE to see some kind of hesrtwrenchingly heroic take on it. I would chalk up Elfman redoing Silvestri's motifs for the better to Whedon specifically asking for it, so maybe he will do the same thing here: a distinctive Elfman score with his take on previous motifs. Regardless, very exciting. Elfman can make the orchestra sound larger than life Superhero with an S, and not just bombastic.
He said he loved Burwell's work. Only hired him once more for "Serenity", before switching to a new composer.
He loved Beck's work. Then never hired him for anything else ever again.
He loved Newman's work, that River's theme brought tears to his eyes. Never worked with him again.
Stuck with Wanker for two seasons of BtVS. Never worked with him again.
I recall him speaking kindly about Rob Simonson's work on the complete and utter misfire that was "Dollhouse". Never worked with him again.
He switched to Robert Duncan as the main composer on the final season of BtVS (Douglas Romayne Stevens was actually chosen for the whole thing). Never worked with him again. Perhaps he didn't ultimately care for the work, but out of loyalty stuck with him (he did give Walter Murphy another shot, but tossed the season two opener score). Who knows. Duncan's seven plus minute finale cue, Chosen, is better than the entire season.
He just hops to another composer over and over again. One might argue that a composer he worked with prior was busy and had to get somebody else. A perfectly reasonable argument.
However, he now has a list of half a dozen composers and I can't reasonably buy that they are all busy. Further more, a composer will often recommend somebody to take their place, but I dont' see a connection of any of these composers (except Beck to Stevens, but Stevens didn't last, so I'm not counting it).
Prepare to be passed on the next Whedon film, Danny boy.
He just hops to another composer over and over again. One might argue that a composer he worked with prior was busy and had to get somebody else. A perfectly reasonable argument.
However, he now has a list of half a dozen composers and I can't reasonably buy that they are all busy. Further more, a composer will often recommend somebody to take their place, but I dont' see a connection of any of these composers (except Beck to Stevens, but Stevens didn't last, so I'm not counting it).
Prepare to be passed on the next Whedon film, Danny boy.
Well, now Elfman is doing two films in a row for him, so.. good times?
