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 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 1:38 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

There are some things everyone who buys (or is considering buying) this release should know.

1) Track 2 "Garden of Magic" includes a synth piano and chime. The piano plays the melody of the song (incorrectly I might add), it starts late, and when the orchestra comes in, the piano has to catch up because it was slightly off.

This track is neither authentic nor intended. It was CREATED for this set (but not advertised as such). The reason being (I have surmised with good evidence) is that Intrada was unable to locate the Isolated voice recordings of Sarah Jessica Parker. "But she sings a whole song later?" yea...I'll get into that.

2) Track 3 "Witche's Lair" includes a synth mock up of Part 3. This, I believe, is due to some strange vocal bleed in the actual recording. So, perhaps with or without the composers knowledge or supervision, a synth mock up was created and mixed in with the actual recording. I can't say because they won't talk about it.

The film version of this track is NOT included on this official album.

3) "I Put a Spell On You" is missing from the set. They said because they couldn't locate the sessions for it. I highly doubt Disney would lose that.

4) Track 21 "Sarah's Theme" is a film rip. The only reason I can think of that explains this and track 2 is they weren't able to locate the original isolated vocals for Sarah Jessica Parker. So instead they ripped the song from the DVD, layering in the full stereo mix over the isolated orchestra elements they DID have. This introduced very minor sfx. It also created a problem because the 2nd verse, she vocalizes for most of it, until the end of it where she actually sings the words again.

Because they lacked the vocal source and due to SFX and dialogue, they had to loop the first verse, layering it over the orchestra of the 2nd (hybridizing the orchestra). A simple phase inversion proves this and isolates the intended orchestra, layered under it.

So again, this track is neither authentic nor intended. It is not an alternate nor an extended version. It's simply all they could do with all they had.

5) Track 28 "Witches Lair Part 3" is another synth mock up mixed with sessions presented in the same way as the track from earlier (track 3) but with the percussion staying on for a bit longer.

BUT with no statement on where this came from, why they made this, or anything, I can't confirm or deny that it's authentic.

6) They said that the original mixes sent to Debney had the voices mixed really loudly and he asked them to turn them down. I can't believe that the voices were mixed any louder than they are in this set because they're already too loud.



I kept asking for clarification and information on these changes since they seem to pretend like none of it happened. No answers were given. My account was deleted off the Intrada forum, all my posts which outlined these details were deleted, and they are now proceeding to call me a monster and say that I feel "entitled" to know these things.

Well I'm sorry, but If I'm buying a CD that says it's the complete score, but it has DVD rip and synth mock ups, I think I SHOULD know that, especially when they claim everything came from the original 24 track masters...

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 2:18 PM   
 By:   catboy19   (Member)

What kind of hocus pocus allowed the composer to get away with using the Batman theme throughout this score?
Anyone who has already got Batman and Witches of Eastwick in their collections has little need to buy this.
I'm surprised the words "composed by" are applied to Debney for this score. "Arranged by" would be more accurate wouldn't it?
And the levels of the orchestra during the song are a total botch. Listen to the drastic drop off at around 0'44".


give us some examples of 'through out the score' please

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 2:50 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)



give us some examples of 'through out the score' please



Excluding the "extras", try tracks:
1, 3, 5, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 25, 26, 27.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 3:01 PM   
 By:   catboy19   (Member)



give us some examples of 'through out the score' please



Excluding the "extras", try tracks:
1, 3, 5, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 25, 26, 27.


I'm not sure I hear it but whats the matter anyway? there are often scores that sound like other scores anyway ...why put this one above any other?

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 3:05 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

there are often scores that sound like other scores anyway ...why put this one above any other?




Possibly because this thread is about this one, and not about others.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 8:58 PM   
 By:   Toby Bixler   (Member)

There are some things everyone who buys (or is considering buying) this release should know.

1) Track 2 "Garden of Magic" includes a synth piano and chime. The piano plays the melody of the song (incorrectly I might add), it starts late, and when the orchestra comes in, the piano has to catch up because it was slightly off.

This track is neither authentic nor intended. It was CREATED for this set (but not advertised as such). The reason being (I have surmised with good evidence) is that Intrada was unable to locate the Isolated voice recordings of Sarah Jessica Parker. "But she sings a whole song later?" yea...I'll get into that.

2) Track 3 "Witche's Lair" includes a synth mock up of Part 3. This, I believe, is due to some strange vocal bleed in the actual recording. So, perhaps with or without the composers knowledge or supervision, a synth mock up was created and mixed in with the actual recording. I can't say because they won't talk about it.

The film version of this track is NOT included on this official album.

3) "I Put a Spell On You" is missing from the set. They said because they couldn't locate the sessions for it. I highly doubt Disney would lose that.

4) Track 21 "Sarah's Theme" is a film rip. The only reason I can think of that explains this and track 2 is they weren't able to locate the original isolated vocals for Sarah Jessica Parker. So instead they ripped the song from the DVD, layering in the full stereo mix over the isolated orchestra elements they DID have. This introduced very minor sfx. It also created a problem because the 2nd verse, she vocalizes for most of it, until the end of it where she actually sings the words again.

Because they lacked the vocal source and due to SFX and dialogue, they had to loop the first verse, layering it over the orchestra of the 2nd (hybridizing the orchestra). A simple phase inversion proves this and isolates the intended orchestra, layered under it.

So again, this track is neither authentic nor intended. It is not an alternate nor an extended version. It's simply all they could do with all they had.

5) Track 28 "Witches Lair Part 3" is another synth mock up mixed with sessions presented in the same way as the track from earlier (track 3) but with the percussion staying on for a bit longer.

BUT with no statement on where this came from, why they made this, or anything, I can't confirm or deny that it's authentic.

6) They said that the original mixes sent to Debney had the voices mixed really loudly and he asked them to turn them down. I can't believe that the voices were mixed any louder than they are in this set because they're already too loud.



I kept asking for clarification and information on these changes since they seem to pretend like none of it happened. No answers were given. My account was deleted off the Intrada forum, all my posts which outlined these details were deleted, and they are now proceeding to call me a monster and say that I feel "entitled" to know these things.

Well I'm sorry, but If I'm buying a CD that says it's the complete score, but it has DVD rip and synth mock ups, I think I SHOULD know that, especially when they claim everything came from the original 24 track masters...


I could care less about any of the crap you're nitpicking about - I'm too busy enjoying the 70 minutes of wonderful music Intrada DID provide for this outstanding CD presentation.

Get a life you unappreciative music snob roll eyes

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 9:25 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

Asking for labels to be honest isn't being a snob. These aren't nit picky things. These are details that are truly offensive. Treating your already limited clientele like they're STUPID... is an insult.

And most fans who loves this score already had said 70 minutes of music.

We live in a digital age where media gets leaked. Labels have to be aware of that. Granted, the parts done right are an upgrade of said material... but releasing something, calling it something its NOT ... That's dishonest.

You think that when FSM released "Towering Inferno" they would dare put all the damaged tracks in and pretend like nothing was wrong? Or even more egregious, they'd replace parts with synth or Film rips?

No. They'd put it at the END and say "Damaged Tracks" (which they did) or "Replicated Tracks" or like for "Black Sunday" they'd talk about how it had to be taken from the isolated music elements or like for "The Satan Bug"that it was taken from the M.E. elements.

That's honest. That's good business.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 9:44 PM   
 By:   Jason LeBlanc   (Member)

Why would Intrada create new synth mockups instead of just releasing what would be a perfectly fine score album without SJP vocals? This is all very odd.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 9:48 PM   
 By:   Smitty   (Member)

Asking for labels to be honest isn't being a snob. These aren't nit picky things. These are details that are truly offensive. Treating your already limited clientele like they're STUPID... is an insult.

I understand what you're saying, and it was probably much too harsh for them to ban you from the forum, but we're talking about soundtracks here. You are strongly demanding utmost transparency regarding the production of a $20 album as if we're talking about something like the quality of local drinking water.

As you said before, they did the best with what they had. Therefore, the outcome was likely never going to be any better than what it is.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 9:56 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

As long as we're ok with setting a low bar, then we should just be happy with sub-par releases and shelling out $20 for this, and then $30 a few years later for a better version, and then $40 years later for a better version.

I just think it's absurd. I get what your saying, I do... it's not like it was a $100 box set... I just, fundamentally don't agree. Even though its cheap, it doesn't mean that we should accept something being marketed for what it's not.

If I wanted film rips and synth mock ups on my album, I would have downloaded someones fan edit and saved myself $19.99 plus shipping.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 10:42 PM   
 By:   Basil Wrathbone   (Member)

Instead of using synth mockups to fill the missing parts, they might as well have plugged the gaps with some sections from Batman and Witches of Eastwick. Few would have noticed the difference.

 
 Posted:   Oct 6, 2013 - 11:46 PM   
 By:   Juanki   (Member)

There are some things everyone who buys (or is considering buying) this release should know.

1) Track 2 "Garden of Magic" includes a synth piano and chime. The piano plays the melody of the song (incorrectly I might add), it starts late, and when the orchestra comes in, the piano has to catch up because it was slightly off.

This track is neither authentic nor intended. It was CREATED for this set (but not advertised as such). The reason being (I have surmised with good evidence) is that Intrada was unable to locate the Isolated voice recordings of Sarah Jessica Parker. "But she sings a whole song later?" yea...I'll get into that.

2) Track 3 "Witche's Lair" includes a synth mock up of Part 3. This, I believe, is due to some strange vocal bleed in the actual recording. So, perhaps with or without the composers knowledge or supervision, a synth mock up was created and mixed in with the actual recording. I can't say because they won't talk about it.

The film version of this track is NOT included on this official album.

3) "I Put a Spell On You" is missing from the set. They said because they couldn't locate the sessions for it. I highly doubt Disney would lose that.

4) Track 21 "Sarah's Theme" is a film rip. The only reason I can think of that explains this and track 2 is they weren't able to locate the original isolated vocals for Sarah Jessica Parker. So instead they ripped the song from the DVD, layering in the full stereo mix over the isolated orchestra elements they DID have. This introduced very minor sfx. It also created a problem because the 2nd verse, she vocalizes for most of it, until the end of it where she actually sings the words again.

Because they lacked the vocal source and due to SFX and dialogue, they had to loop the first verse, layering it over the orchestra of the 2nd (hybridizing the orchestra). A simple phase inversion proves this and isolates the intended orchestra, layered under it.

So again, this track is neither authentic nor intended. It is not an alternate nor an extended version. It's simply all they could do with all they had.

5) Track 28 "Witches Lair Part 3" is another synth mock up mixed with sessions presented in the same way as the track from earlier (track 3) but with the percussion staying on for a bit longer.

BUT with no statement on where this came from, why they made this, or anything, I can't confirm or deny that it's authentic.

6) They said that the original mixes sent to Debney had the voices mixed really loudly and he asked them to turn them down. I can't believe that the voices were mixed any louder than they are in this set because they're already too loud.



I kept asking for clarification and information on these changes since they seem to pretend like none of it happened. No answers were given. My account was deleted off the Intrada forum, all my posts which outlined these details were deleted, and they are now proceeding to call me a monster and say that I feel "entitled" to know these things.

Well I'm sorry, but If I'm buying a CD that says it's the complete score, but it has DVD rip and synth mock ups, I think I SHOULD know that, especially when they claim everything came from the original 24 track masters...


Thanks, I really appreciate your analysis. I was making my mind about getting this score but all this info sounds suspicion. I have consideration for Intrada, as well for any soundtrack label which takes the risk of releasing film music nowadays.

But I don't like to be tricked...

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 5:24 AM   
 By:   jwb   (Member)

What's that saying? Don't give me chicken and try to tell me its a turkey. Or something like that.

I'm shocked you got banned GoodMusician86, honestly. I thought perhaps you deleted your own posts, but clearly you hit a spot with them.

Look, there will certainly be people who will listen to Hocus Pocus and have only glowing things to say about it. And that's fine. But there were clearly issues behind the scenes that Intrada does not want to talk about. Doug said he doesn't understand why people care about behind the scenes stuff... really? I think they should know why, especially for those of us who know the music inside out. Its no different to why people want to know behind the scenes stuff on movies... commentaries, special features on DVDs/Blu-Rays, etc. If Intrada doesnt understand why people like behind the scenes stuff, why do they bother with providing great liner notes with extra info about the production? Or do they really hate doing this?

There will be some here who will just say shut up and be happy. Stop nitpicking. But as GoodMusician86 pointed out we aren't just talking about a fade here and a edit here. They have already said they were pressured to get this out this year for Halloween and ran out of time. One then wonders how long did they work on this? Was it a quickie? Its hard to believe a score such as Hocus Pocus could have been pressured to get out considering it took so many years for it to see the light day. There are some differences in the mixing that they have attributed to Debney's input. Fine. But there are still remaining oddities that GoodMusician86 has pointed out. I have no problem with having to use film stems, but why not just say that is what you had to use? MV and La La did it with Hook and I appreciated the honesty, because no doubt they knew people would hear it and question it. You can't fool us.

Doug also posted a new thread (http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5802) on their forums about production costs vs the cost of a $20 CD and said it was in response to nothing particular, but obviously it was about Hocus Pocus. I understand what he is saying. I get that they work hard, I get that it costs them money. But I work hard too for the money I make that I give to the labels. One thing I have realized, there is a lot of ego involved in the soundtrack business, which is why we sometimes see the labels re-release and change releases to their own liking and as you can clearly see with some of the public spats the labels and producers have gotten into with each other. The recent Poltergeist II Intrada vs Kritzerland as an example. I don't believe just because our hobby is highly collectible and limited that we should also not have the right to voice our opinions or complaints just as you would if you were not happy with Blu-Ray you bought or a car you bought. We all know it costs money to produce these releases, but I don't think just because something "only" costs $20 that we all should just keep our mouths shut and be happy. I apparently bought for $20 the "complete" Hocus Pocus score, but clearly that isn't really the case. Is Intrada trying to say Hocus Pocus was troubled due to budget? Is the pricing not realistic anymore? Do they need $25 to properly release single disc sets now? I don't know.

Like I said, I am still happy Intrada answered the call to get Hocus Pocus out, clearly they were listening, but as I said, that doesn't mean questions cannot be raised about its production and choices made. Intrada certainly do not have to answer any of them, which they clearly don't want to do, so I've stopped asking. I really recommend everyone check out the thread where all this was discussed - it is interesting http://www.intrada.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5794

In the end, I believe we were both "tricked" and "treated" on Hocus Pocus. Aren't I clever? I still would recommend to anyone to pick Hocus Pocus up. Its a great score.

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 7:12 AM   
 By:   Juanki   (Member)

We all know it costs money to produce these releases, but I don't think just because something "only" costs $20 that we all should just keep our mouths shut and be happy.

I agree

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 8:24 AM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

Hey JWB, thought that was you again heh...

And yea, I wasn't contacted or anything. I just went to log in and my account didn't exist anymore.

And as discussed, I can understand time constraints, I can understand production costs, I can even understand editing/mixing choices. What I can't understand, however, is what we got.

It seems so out of character, it seems so weird.


Appreciation of a product is one thing, but I think ANY business, be it film scores or carpet cleaning needs to take PRIDE in their work and stand behind it and always be able to justify their costs and choice in products/services.

They must CONTINUALLY ask themselves "why would someone pay $##.## for this?"

And if they can't answer that... if they can't explain it... if they can't come up with a reason... then they need to re-examine what they're doing.

If their only response is "What we made we're selling for cheap!" may as well be an admission that they don't care and just threw something together to sell.

Gosh, I would have purchased a 2 Disc version of Hocus Pocus if it included all the necessary alternate mixes and the party source music and Bette Midler's song! I would have paid $30-40-50 for that!

I know someone who asked John Debney about Hocus Pocus earlier this year (around June) if they would ever release it and he confirmed it was already on its way. So I can tell you it's been in production for a few months at least.

I've been doing some more studies on the score and I've also noticed that the most recent leak of the score prior to this album (the one with the clipping for those familiar) is actually almost identical to this versions wav form except for a slight phase drift and the choir differences.

There are moments (usually the areas that had clipping) that look to have been remixed. But for the most part, the score looks like it was taken from this original Stereo Down Mix which, honestly, in any other context, I'd be SO happy to read! It would mean that the mixing was authentic! But this tells me further that they had very little to do for this except fix a few moments and put the choir in (which I have trouble believing the choir was mixed any louder like they said omfg it would have clipped lol)
Any experienced mixer could have probably done what they did in 5-7 full days...

The part that would take the longest was making the synth mock ups honestly...

To be clear, I am ECSTATIC that this was released! Over-joyed! Finally! AND I am with MOST of this album! Most of it is authentic and brilliant and clear and complete.
I am NOT happy with the details I outlined in my list or with how this is being marketed/handled.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 11:47 AM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

So JWB, I say you and I change our screen names to "EntitlementTrain" and "MusicMonster" respectively razz

I need to start keeping a tally on this I think...

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 11:50 AM   
 By:   jwb   (Member)

So JWB, I say you and I change our screen names to "EntitlementTrain" and "MusicMonster" respectively razz

I need to start keeping a tally on this I think...


I guess I have a different idea of what entitlement is. To me, entitlement is the teenager who's folks buy them a car and they demand a different car.

I haven't demanded anything from Intrada, simply asked questions. They answered some, and not answered others. That's their choice. Doug said some were valid, which one's I don't know.

If people can't take questions or criticism, I guess they should choose a different field. It comes with the territory with anything related to something creative.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 11:58 AM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

Absolutely agreed on every point. I just have to laugh at the people who say WE'RE 'entitled' and that I'm a 'monster.' lol

This is no different than someone asking a Snake Oil salesman what's in his concoction. Perhaps some of it is "proprietary" but if it says on the bottle "cures all ailments" then I wanna see the proof and if the evidence is that it doesn't, I should have the right to ask a question.

And as an honest company, they should WANT to answer their customers rather than take their money, ignore their questions, then delete their account.

 
 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 7:32 PM   
 By:   GoodMusician86   (Member)

For all those interested, it's now been stated that the film rips were all that was available for "Sarah's Theme."

It's also apparently John Debney playing the piano in track 2 (no mention of who recorded/arranged the new synch chimes or the portions in 3 and 28 but I imagine it was him too.

 
 Posted:   Oct 7, 2013 - 7:51 PM   
 By:   La La Land Records   (Member)

You made your point. You are acting like Brainy Smurf and NO ONE likes Brainy Smurf.

MV

 
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