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Right. Just because a release is doubtful doesn't mean we can't talk about the score. And it is a great one, thank you Yavar for taking the time to provide the detailed breakdown.
You're welcome, Roger! I'm humbled that someone in the biz appreciates the work I put into this. If you have the time, be sure to check out my breakdown for Crawlspace (link in first post above), another superb (and totally unreleased) score, though it isn't *quite* on the level of Damnation Alley, for me. But there are three great varied action cues and a lot of gorgeous delicate scoring.
Here's a suite I made containing all of the (edited) unreleased bits, including that great landmaster part.
https://youtu.be/MFtj4aR3Ms0
Great job, but isn't 90% of the unreleased music "great landmaster parts"? 
So by my calculation, you only had to give up about two minutes of music due to dialogue, since I found about 9:40 of previously unreleased music in the film.
Any chance you'd be willing to do a similar edited suite for Jerry's Crawlspace, using the time index points I gave in my breakdown as a guide?
Yavar
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Posted: |
Oct 10, 2016 - 4:41 PM
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By: |
The Mutant
(Member)
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Right. Just because a release is doubtful doesn't mean we can't talk about the score. And it is a great one, thank you Yavar for taking the time to provide the detailed breakdown.
You're welcome, Roger! I'm humbled that someone in the biz appreciates the work I put into this. If you have the time, be sure to check out my breakdown for Crawlspace (link in first post above), another superb (and totally unreleased) score, though it isn't *quite* on the level of Damnation Alley, for me. But there are three great varied action cues and a lot of gorgeous delicate scoring.
Here's a suite I made containing all of the (edited) unreleased bits, including that great landmaster part.
https://youtu.be/MFtj4aR3Ms0
Great job, but isn't 90% of the unreleased music "great landmaster parts"?
So by my calculation, you only had to give up about two minutes of music due to dialogue, since I found about 9:40 of previously unreleased music in the film.
Any chance you'd be willing to do a similar edited suite for Jerry's Crawlspace, using the time index points I gave in my breakdown as a guide?
Yavar
Yeah I had to edit around the dialogue and some other things. If you watch the film you'll see how I connected certain pieces. And yes, Goldsmith really injected energy into those shots of the landmaster rolling across the countryside. I love the bits on the Varese CD, but I think the best parts are still unreleased.
I'd definitely take a crack at Crawlspace.
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Thanks for the breakdown, Yavar. Makes for interesting reading and listening.
If D/M/E splits or an M&E track were in existence, it would be possible to use them to augment the orchestral tracks. Even if the composite soundtrack is all that now exists, some sequences don’t seem to have intrusive dialog or effects so could be used. Having said that, much of the synth effects appear in the center channel alongside much of the sound effects and (naturally) dialog and this could pose a problem.
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Posted: |
Oct 11, 2016 - 8:01 AM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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The demand for something like this among Goldsmith fans has to be large and I think such a CD if it were a 3000 limited edition would quickly sell out. The only reason I can figure as to why it hasn't happened is no one can figure out how to do it and make a profit -- because the Fox wants too much money.
I think you're jumping to a lot of conclusions here based on absolutely zero evidence.
Apparently, all of the orchestral elements of "Damnation Alley" exist, in good sound, but only a portion of the electronic elements do. This is not the same as "The Satan Bug," where it either existed as a music track or else purely as an M&E track. To use the up-down M&E on "Damnation" means abandoning the clean orchestral tracks that exist in favor of very compromised elements. (I don't really understand your belief that this one could be done "most probably with better results" than "Satan." What is this based on?)
And I'm told that "The Satan Bug" was not an especially good seller. Why? Could be any number of reasons, but certainly the M&E tracks couldn't have helped.
So I'm not really clear why this sonically compromised score for a forgotten film would be a quick sell-out. Or why mean old Fox would be what's making this financially impossible. Are you suggesting they're demanding an unreasonable amount for this one while they've played ball on so many other Fox scores that have come out?
As for Yavar's suggestions, I'm no techie, but it seems to me the synth elements on the film tracks are married to the orchestral elements, and cannot be extracted. Besides, they may be of very different quality than those orchestral tracks, meaning that even if they could be extracted (and again, that seems extremely unlikely), the results might not be what we'd like. So as has been said, short of discovering the missing elements (and who ever knows about that?), the best shot of this happening would be to recreate the synth components. But that isn't exactly a piece of cake, and comes with its own costs. And inevitably, some fans will insist it doesn't sound right.
In any case, as in life, "Satan" and "Damnation" are related, but not exactly the same thing.
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Posted: |
Oct 11, 2016 - 8:38 AM
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By: |
RoryR
(Member)
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Schiffy, you're not Perry Mason and we're not in a court of law, so what's this thing with demanding evidence? I'm not trying to prove anything to you, it's just my opinion and it's based on what I've been told by others who have dealt with licensing things from Fox and what the demands were -- and in my opinion, those demands were excessive. I don't have a good "opinion" of the modern Fox, mostly based on what now owns it, and on the home video division going back to the days of their price policies on laserdiscs. Oh, I've thought the Fox was greedy for a long time.
But anyway, as to this score. It would be an instant "must have" with me -- and I think the movie stinks, I have no fondness for it whatsoever. I was not aware that THE SATAN BUG was a poor seller. I've enjoyed that CD ever since I got it when it came out.
But I guess you guys are confirming my first reaction to this thread -- that it's a waste of time hoping for such a release, so why bother even thinking about it?
I also don't agree that DAMNATION ALLEY is a forgotten movie. It's a largely forgotten movie, but it's still remembered enough for there to be a Blu-ray. I was just over at Blu-ray.com reading a review of the disc and it didn't have exactly good things to say about the audio, which makes me wonder as to how well the elements have been preserved in general.
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Thanks for the breakdown, Yavar. Makes for interesting reading and listening.
If D/M/E splits or an M&E track were in existence, it would be possible to use them to augment the orchestral tracks. Even if the composite soundtrack is all that now exists, some sequences don’t seem to have intrusive dialog or effects so could be used. Having said that, much of the synth effects appear in the center channel alongside much of the sound effects and (naturally) dialog and this could pose a problem.
You're welcome, Chris. I'm honored that you took the time to reply re: my speculation about restoration techniques. Unfortunate that others in this thread seem to have missed your post!
Guys, this could happen. Chris is in the biz; he knows what he's talking about. I feel certain that at least a great additional portion of this score can be rescued in the manner he describes. This has nothing to do with The Satan Bug (as has been noted); it is a situation more akin to FSM's release of Some Came Running, if anything. The orchestral tracks survive, and only overlays are missing which could be cleaned up and substituted from other sources. And as we can tell from Mutant's suite, a great deal of the synth parts play in the film with just an engine hum to contend with for the most part. I suspect that engine sound can be minimized.
Yavar
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Really good idea, Michael. I look forward to all your future great work, Mutant!
Yavar
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Posted: |
Oct 11, 2016 - 10:58 AM
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By: |
SchiffyM
(Member)
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Schiffy, you're not Perry Mason and we're not in a court of law, so what's this thing with demanding evidence?
I'll admit that I get cranky -- play, perhaps excessively cranky -- when people toss around accusations based on nothing. Believe me, I have no love for 20th Century Fox on any level, and being in the entertainment business myself, some of that grudge is personal. (And I suppose I'm sensitive, given that I'll see people jumping to similar conclusions on the internet about projects that I or friends of mine are involved in. I can take criticism - I'm pretty self-loathing myself – but I do get sore when people assume I've made choices cynically when I simply tried my best and maybe came up short.)
That said, how does it help to make such accusations? When you write "I suspect licensing fees from Fox that are just too ridiculously high" and "Fox wants too much money," it doesn't take long before these suspicions (yes, you acknowledged that) are taken as fact. Obviously, this is a common problem these days, where politicians back up specious claims with "a lot of people are saying" – and I fully grant you, the stakes on this board are not that high! – but I just don't see what good it does to suggest that the studio is avaricious to the point of delusion.
Honestly, given how little money is in these limited releases, I think it's a miracle that any of these studios bother at all. And Fox was the first studio to jump in to the archival soundtrack releases, 23 years ago.
We know that pieces of this score have been missing. I don't think it's much of a reach to believe that's why we haven't seen more of it than Varèse released.
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What’s nice about your thread, Yavar, is that you’ve taken the time to discuss the music and encouraged others to do the same. So, instead of a thread padded with “ordered” or “I will not buy this watermelon” statements, we have discussion about the music.
In the nice unreleased suite, provided by The Mutant, it’s interesting to note how Goldsmith uses the brass and synths in a manner more reminiscent of percussion. The synth lines then act as an accelerator propelling the action forward. It’s all like a brilliant blend of Capricorn One and Logan’s Run.
Goldsmith’s score certainly conjures mental images of a far better film than it accompanied. But that seemed to be the case through much of his career.
As for the audio, certainly anything is possible by combining disparate elements -- this is not extraordinary in the world of soundtrack album production now.
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Posted: |
Oct 13, 2016 - 6:06 AM
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By: |
Broughtfan
(Member)
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I doubt this helps at all, but here's info I had on the DA scoring sessions (from the OM reports filed with AFM 47, collected as research material in 2012 or 2013):
Post production title: "Survival Run" (Damnation Alley)
Recording dates (orchestral score recorded TCF stage): 26, 27 January, 3 February, 1977 (four saxes recorded afternoon session 3 February, fourteen piece big band recorded 4 February, 1977)
Orchestra complements (not incl. leader): 70, 69, 69
Leader: J.Goldsmith (all dates)
Keyboardist on session (probably piano): Artie Kane
Guessing Jerry Goldsmith pre-recorded all of the synth tracks himself (as he had on Logan's Run).
Would his estate have retained the pre-records (perhaps as "Survival Run")?
Happy to throw in my "two cents worth."
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