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Winter Soldier was lean and thrilling, the perfect length and perfect pace for its material.
Civil War is overstuffed, trying to live up to its title but not remotely managing it due to the limited time and juggling so many new characters. It would more appropriately be titled, "Civil Scuffle" ... and the plot was really just nonsense. Every little thing had to happen as it happened for the villain's "brilliant plan" to come off. If any one thing had happened slightly differently, it all would have fallen apart. I just couldn't suspend disbelief at a certain point, like I happily could for Winter Soldier, where it felt REAL and I was INVESTED...on the edge of my seat really.
LOVED Anne Hathaway's Catwoman, tons of fun...and she was integral/important to the plot HOW, exactly? Ugh, and don't even get me started on the mess of Bane/Talia. Or WTF happened to Bruce Wayne. Sigh. Needed extensive trimming and rewrites.)
Yavar
The way you describe CW is how I see Batman vs Superman. I like Dark Knight Rises, thought it played out more like a great comic book than most in the genre. And Hathaway MADE room for herself in the role imo. She was just too sensational. Should be more of her AND Bale, and please PLEASE get rick of Affleck, an actor I just cannot get with. On anything.
Shrugging, hey we can't all like the same things of course.
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Oh, I agree Hathaway made room -- she dominated that film! But I wish the scriptwriters had found more than a flimsy thematic/plot purpose for her! Catwoman was in the movie because "It would be cool if Catwoman is in this movie!" Not because she was conceived in an integral way to it.
Despite all of the many, many problems with Batman Returns, an even more flawed and sloppy film than Dark Knight Rises if possible...Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman was absolutely integral.
Yavar
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Oh, I agree Hathaway made room -- she dominated that film! But I wish the scriptwriters had found more than a flimsy thematic/plot purpose for her! Catwoman was in the movie because "It would be cool if Catwoman is in this movie!" Not because she was conceived in an integral way to it.
Despite all of the many, many problems with Batman Returns, an even more flawed and sloppy film than Dark Knight Rises if possible...Michelle Pfeiffer's Catwoman was absolutely integral.
Yavar
I just do not like Keaton's Batman...to me he always looked like Bat Dork (no offense to fans). After the super entertaining Adam West, I like Bale best.
I liked DeVito's Penguin though. I dunno, the 90s movies just didn't do it for me as far as Batman goes.
To me Romero and Heath's Jokers were the best (and I LOVE Tom's Bane! One of my favorite Batman villains).
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Tom Hardy's performance was good, aside from the little problem of being able to understand him which has been endlessly spoofed. Bane wasn't the problem, for me. How he was used in the script/plot was.
I liked Keaton's Batman. It sounds like you have more of an issue with his Bruce Wayne (which I also liked). I liked Christian Bale's Bruce Wayne quite a bit but found his "Batman voice" rather painful, to be honest. And that's also been endlessly spoofed since, of course.
The only actor to totally nail both Bruce Wayne and Batman has been Kevin Conroy, for the animated series. For me, that is the definitive version of the character despite it being a "kid's show" -- it's also got the best music ever written for the character by far, by Shirley Walker and her great team. And as much as I liked Heath Ledger's Joker as the best of the live action versions, Mark Hamill is definitive in my mind.
Yavar
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Tom Hardy's performance was good, aside from the little problem of being able to understand him which has been endlessly spoofed. Bane wasn't the problem, for me. How he was used in the script/plot was.
Yavar
And...to put myself firmly under the bus, I liked the DKR score best. I felt the synths sounded terrific (I've messed with things not dissimilar in my first symphony), loved the macho chorale.
I like the Dark Knight score too of course (and all three movies overall).
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Yeah I don't love any of the trilogy's scores and I can't fathom why a Herrmann fanatic like you would prefer Zimmer's chugga chugga generic ostinato approach with a two-note Batman theme over Elfman's (he got his Batman theme FROM Herrmann! and, y'know, puts it through some interesting variation and development even if it's not on a Goldsmith sort of level).
For me, the best things in the scores are written by James Newton Howard and really wish he'd just been given the whole thing to do himself. I'll bet he would have come up with something really cohesive, great, and powerful.
Yavar
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Yeah I don't love any of the trilogy's scores and I can't fathom why a Herrmann fanatic like you would prefer Zimmer's chugga chugga generic ostinato approach with a two-note Batman theme over Elfman's (he got his Batman theme FROM Herrmann! and, y'know, puts it through some interesting variation and development even if it's not on a Goldsmith sort of level).
For me, the best things in the scores are written by James Newton Howard and really wish he'd just been given the whole thing to do himself. I'll bet he would have come up with something really cohesive, great, and powerful.
Yavar
I actually liked the way Silvestri channelled Herrmann in What Lies Beneath more than when Elfman tried it. I just don't get an emotional connection from Elfman (Black Beauty being the striking exception). Again, I speak with a good bit of ignorance on the subject...I own only Black Beauty on CD everything else Elfman I've heard on YT or in the movies. So I am almost certainly unknowledgeable considering his fairly extensive repetorie and thus what I say deserves to be served with a fine grain of salt.
Anyway,vive le difference.
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Yeah I don't love any of the trilogy's scores and I can't fathom why a Herrmann fanatic like you would prefer Zimmer's chugga chugga generic ostinato approach with a two-note Batman theme over Elfman's (he got his Batman theme FROM Herrmann! and, y'know, puts it through some interesting variation and development even if it's not on a Goldsmith sort of level).
For me, the best things in the scores are written by James Newton Howard and really wish he'd just been given the whole thing to do himself. I'll bet he would have come up with something really cohesive, great, and powerful.
Yavar
I actually liked the way Silvestri channelled Herrmann in What Lies Beneath more than when Elfman tried it. I just don't get an emotional connection from Elfman (Black Beauty being the striking exception). Again, I speak with a good bit of ignorance on the subject...I own only Black Beauty on CD everything else Elfman I've heard on YT or in the movies. So I am almost certainly unknowledgeable considering his fairly extensive repetorie and thus what I say deserves to be served with a fine grain of salt.
Anyway,vive le difference.
Try Edward Scissorhands. It's quite amazing.
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Try Edward Scissorhands. It's quite amazing.
Hey I just remembered my guy has that on dvd, have to break it out soon.
I saw Spider-man Homecoming today and liked it. I like the second Maguire movie best.
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Oh heck I just heard Sommersby and found another exception to my abovementioned, ignorant idea of Elfman. This is excellent!
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